Comments for Software Carpentry http://software-carpentry.org Helping scientists make better software since 1997 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:36:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24883 Greg Wilson Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:36:12 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24883 "Python is such a beautiful, powerful language with so many libraries to do all you can possibly think of that, when proposing a different approach the onus is on the proposer to come up with an alternative that beats Python not only in the way one operator is used, but in the whole package." Agreed --- in my experience, other languages are equally broken. That doesn't excuse any of them... “Python is such a beautiful, powerful language with so many libraries to do all you can possibly think of that, when proposing a different approach the onus is on the proposer to come up with an alternative that beats Python not only in the way one operator is used, but in the whole package.” Agreed — in my experience, other languages are equally broken. That doesn’t excuse any of them…

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Joao http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24882 Joao Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:24:43 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24882 I believe the title of the post was a bit of a flame-bait. Your criticism of Python's installation hardships are very valid, but they are by no means a criticism of the Python programming language. As pointed out by other commenters, the syntax inflexibility you see in Python is its biggest strength. import this to be reminded that "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it" :) Jokes aside, I find the discussion of Python or not-Python counterproductive. Python is such a beautiful, powerful language with so many libraries to do all you can possibly think of that, when proposing a different approach the onus is on the proposer to come up with an alternative that beats Python not only in the way one operator is used, but in the whole package. A (not so strong) parallel can be drawn with the scientific discourse. Scientific theories that have stood the test of exhaustive falsification attempts enjoy a status that allows us to view with great skepticism the proposal of alternatives that would solve all our problems. That's why we rarely waste our time with all those papers stating that general relativity is plainly false or that evolution needs a magical hand to guide it. Such is the (admittedly, tongue-in-cheek) status of Python. Complaining about it without proposing a solution or a very reasonable alternative is setting ourselves up to be ignored just the way fringe science should be. I believe the title of the post was a bit of a flame-bait. Your criticism of Python’s installation hardships are very valid, but they are by no means a criticism of the Python programming language. As pointed out by other commenters, the syntax inflexibility you see in Python is its biggest strength. import this to be reminded that “There should be one– and preferably only one –obvious way to do it” :)

Jokes aside, I find the discussion of Python or not-Python counterproductive. Python is such a beautiful, powerful language with so many libraries to do all you can possibly think of that, when proposing a different approach the onus is on the proposer to come up with an alternative that beats Python not only in the way one operator is used, but in the whole package.

A (not so strong) parallel can be drawn with the scientific discourse. Scientific theories that have stood the test of exhaustive falsification attempts enjoy a status that allows us to view with great skepticism the proposal of alternatives that would solve all our problems. That’s why we rarely waste our time with all those papers stating that general relativity is plainly false or that evolution needs a magical hand to guide it.

Such is the (admittedly, tongue-in-cheek) status of Python. Complaining about it without proposing a solution or a very reasonable alternative is setting ourselves up to be ignored just the way fringe science should be.

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24872 Greg Wilson Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:40:58 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24872 <a href="#comment-24863" rel="nofollow">@scape </a> As for why I (usually) don't use IDLE, try using it with the turtle graphics library some time on a Mac. The drawing window pops up in the background; the shell window has to be killed over and over again; and again, the lesson to learners is, "Programming is about being frustrated." @scape As for why I (usually) don’t use IDLE, try using it with the turtle graphics library some time on a Mac. The drawing window pops up in the background; the shell window has to be killed over and over again; and again, the lesson to learners is, “Programming is about being frustrated.”

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24871 Greg Wilson Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:39:31 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24871 <a href="#comment-24863" rel="nofollow">@scape </a> "i don’t know if you can turn down a language based on installation woes." I can (and will) if installation woes make learners walk away and learn something else --- which they do. (And again, the matrix multiplication thing wasn't meant entirely seriously.) @scape “i don’t know if you can turn down a language based on installation woes.” I can (and will) if installation woes make learners walk away and learn something else — which they do. (And again, the matrix multiplication thing wasn’t meant entirely seriously.)

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by scape http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24863 scape Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:51:36 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24863 i don't know if you can turn down a language based on installation woes. mac osx aside (though I've never had a problem,) windows installation is very straight forward. double click, follow prompts. run IDLE. you could certainly have them run a python script you made to automatically write the path variables if you really want them to run python scripts via command prompt, but wouldn't it make more sense to have them hit F5 in IDLE? for that sake, atleast IDLE has syntax highlighting, which helps when learning a new programming language. as for matrix multiplication, you could also either use a module (most graphics modules have it already as a method) or have them build their own overload function for later use. i can understand the frustration of getting a class together on things, but preparation is key. i keep atleast one mac and one linux and one windows box in every lab i have, for those purposes and for teaching differences to students. just an idea for you, consider dual boot/virtual machines if you're short on computers i'm not necessarily a python advocate, but it is a simple and easy to get in to language-- typically i don’t know if you can turn down a language based on installation woes. mac osx aside (though I’ve never had a problem,) windows installation is very straight forward. double click, follow prompts. run IDLE. you could certainly have them run a python script you made to automatically write the path variables if you really want them to run python scripts via command prompt, but wouldn’t it make more sense to have them hit F5 in IDLE? for that sake, atleast IDLE has syntax highlighting, which helps when learning a new programming language.

as for matrix multiplication, you could also either use a module (most graphics modules have it already as a method) or have them build their own overload function for later use.

i can understand the frustration of getting a class together on things, but preparation is key. i keep atleast one mac and one linux and one windows box in every lab i have, for those purposes and for teaching differences to students. just an idea for you, consider dual boot/virtual machines if you’re short on computers

i’m not necessarily a python advocate, but it is a simple and easy to get in to language– typically

]]> Comment on Badges (Mark 1) by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/badges-mark-1/comment-page-1/#comment-24856 Greg Wilson Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:45:00 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4589#comment-24856 Thanks for the feedback --- can you suggest alternative terms for the three groups? Thanks for the feedback — can you suggest alternative terms for the three groups?

]]> Comment on Badges (Mark 1) by tissit http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/badges-mark-1/comment-page-1/#comment-24844 tissit Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:46:06 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4589#comment-24844 "Learner" may not be seen as a flattering label by all people. "Organizer" sounds like a non-producer and someone with a badge saying "Creator" would look like a person with delusions of grandeur. They look nice. “Learner” may not be seen as a flattering label by all people. “Organizer” sounds like a non-producer and someone with a badge saying “Creator” would look like a person with delusions of grandeur.

They look nice.

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24803 Greg Wilson Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:14:11 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24803 1. The @ proposal wasn't meant entirely seriously :-) 2. So if someone wants to learn programming, and I want them to use Python, they should switch OSes? Or switch into a VM running an OS they're not familiar with? I don't think that makes their first 30 minutes any more comfortable (or comprehensible). See also http://kkinder.com/2012/02/16/the-ongoing-alpha-quality-buggitude-that-is-ubuntu/... 1. The @ proposal wasn’t meant entirely seriously :-)
2. So if someone wants to learn programming, and I want them to use Python, they should switch OSes? Or switch into a VM running an OS they’re not familiar with? I don’t think that makes their first 30 minutes any more comfortable (or comprehensible). See also http://kkinder.com/2012/02/16/the-ongoing-alpha-quality-buggitude-that-is-ubuntu/...

]]> Comment on Assessment Redux by Greg Wilson http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/assessment-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-24802 Greg Wilson Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:12:23 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4597#comment-24802 The short answer is "no" --- when I watch people to see if they "get it", I'm usually watching them do very different (domain-specific) things. Part of what I look for is wasted effort: if someone is doing something in five steps that I could do in one, or if they're backtracking repeatedly, I mentally file them under "doesn't get it", then dig in to find out why not. The short answer is “no” — when I watch people to see if they “get it”, I’m usually watching them do very different (domain-specific) things. Part of what I look for is wasted effort: if someone is doing something in five steps that I could do in one, or if they’re backtracking repeatedly, I mentally file them under “doesn’t get it”, then dig in to find out why not.

]]> Comment on Why *Not* Use Python by Ken http://software-carpentry.org/2012/02/why-not-use-python/comment-page-1/#comment-24801 Ken Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:06:34 +0000 http://software-carpentry.org/?p=4588#comment-24801 I sort of disagree. By just coming up with a character "an at sign" and say, "if combined with these other random symbols, it'll do this", you're sort of letting your Perl show. :) The reason I use Python is that its whole culture is hesitant to implement magic, and that conservative approach has yielded a remarkably clean language. Adding first class ranges "just because" might be okay-ish, but lists are not matrixes and an "@" sign does not mean, to the average programmer, "do something magical with these lists". If you want matrix programming, there are modules for it. If you want a range, there's a function to give you one. It's a little extra typing, but it's clean and consistent. As for your installation headaches. There are technical solutions, like imaging hard drives. Or you could try Ubuntu, where Python really is a first-class language. I sort of disagree. By just coming up with a character “an at sign” and say, “if combined with these other random symbols, it’ll do this”, you’re sort of letting your Perl show. :) The reason I use Python is that its whole culture is hesitant to implement magic, and that conservative approach has yielded a remarkably clean language. Adding first class ranges “just because” might be okay-ish, but lists are not matrixes and an “@” sign does not mean, to the average programmer, “do something magical with these lists”.

If you want matrix programming, there are modules for it. If you want a range, there’s a function to give you one. It’s a little extra typing, but it’s clean and consistent.

As for your installation headaches. There are technical solutions, like imaging hard drives. Or you could try Ubuntu, where Python really is a first-class language.

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